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有關4/3系統與一般N,C,S的分別

snowmen wrote:
At the upp...(恕刪)


So by the end of the day, it all comes down to DXOmark. The ultimate image quality testing software which doesn't provide any data or information how it measures the camera. What Lens does it use to test each camera? What condition does it use to come up with all those data?

If you want to jump into the discussion, please read the whole thread. I have nothing against dpreview and in fact, i think it delivers pretty good review if you can read english properly.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=29796128

This is a comparison people did for D700 vs E3. I don't see how E3's image quality can be worse than D700 or even 350D.

I had issue with how SMC understands english on dpreview website, not dpreview itself.

meridian wrote:
那你告訴我要怎麼調整...(恕刪)


現在看到的m4/3的鏡頭裡面
似乎沒有大光圈
不就是告訴你答案嗎

你只是猜G1沒有直射光
猜G1是用軟體矯正邊角失光
這是你的推測
不用講的好像你有證據一樣

請不要假裝沒看到選擇性回答

你引那一篇文哪裡講到Panasonic G1不用直射光啊?
哪裡說他用軟體矯正邊角失光啊?


結果你也只是個預言大師
連證據都拿不出來
Windwaker wrote:
So by the ...(恕刪)


What about Image-Resource?
You may have your reason to disagree with the way DXO mark the "DXOSensor" and rank without comparing corner quality, but what's wrong with DXO ranking Dynamic Range?

The link you gave me...
One person tested something on the forum that even E3 users aren't agreed with!

FROM DPREVIEW FORUM wrote:
Take a look at the raw DR. There will be a huge difference in comparison. There is a large ability to bring up the shadows of the D700, as well as more ability to bring back the highlights.

I own the E-3, and I'm happy as can be with it, but I'm not going to pretend the DR is in the same ballpark as the D700. The E-3 is great in good light. The D700 will eat it alive in very low or very harsh light.

-
Greg


Truth is, I compare D700/D90 and E3 in the shot side by side on 30" LCD on a Mac in the store.
E3 is noisy in the dark area.
Now, even if you have any way to prove E3 has a greater DR in a low quality image. (Which I still don't find it anywhere "except" Olympus user from places like forum or their own blog.)
Those noisy are still not acceptable in the printed material!

It takes me A WEEK to get rid of the noise in E1 photo for magazine use.
I don't care how many details E1 has got in dark area, if you want to get rid of the noise, you are gonna erase the detail as well!
我的 Blog http://snowmen-world.blogspot.com/
snowmen wrote:
What about Image-Resource?
You may have your reason to disagree with the way DXO mark the "DXOSensor" and rank without comparing corner quality, but what's wrong with DXO ranking Dynamic Range?

The link you gave me...
One person tested something on the forum that even E3 users aren't agreed with!block


If everyone agrees on everything we talked about here, what's the point of having the discussion in the first place. One of the E3 user disagrees with it doesn't mean anything.

The DXO Sensor doesn't provide information on how it ranks the dynamic range, or even anything! It's not a valid test if it doesn't provide any information on how they test it.

If you are happy with a test without any background information/methodology, I'm sure you are just happy with the result of the test, not the validity of it.

Truth is, I compare D700/D90 and E3 in the shot side by side on 30" LCD on a Mac in the store.
E3 is noisy in the dark area.
Now, even if you have any way to prove E3 has a greater DR in a low quality image. (Which I still don't find it anywhere "except" Olympus user from places like forum or their own blog.)
Those noisy are still not acceptable in the printed material!

It takes me A WEEK to get rid of the noise in E1 photo for magazine use.
I don't care how many details E1 has got in dark area, if you want to get rid of the noise, you are gonna erase the detail as well!


Again, that's your interpretation, not neccesssarily the truth itself.

The link I gave you explains a different point of view. 4/3 does better in dynamic range when there is enough light. We have a lot of users talks about it even in this thread. Your experience with E1/E3 may be bad. There are, however, a lot of Olympus Users are happy with their camera to do magazine work.

I guess it all depends on the object you are shooting at, the enviroment, and the brain of the photographer.
Windwaker wrote:
If everyone agrees on everything we talked about here, what's the point of having the discussion in the first place.


True, this I agree with you.

Windwaker wrote:
The DXO Sensor doesn't provide information on how it ranks the dynamic range, or even anything! It's not a valid test if it doesn't provide any information on how they test it. If you are happy with a test without any background information/methodology, I'm sure you are just happy with the result of the test, not the validity of it.


You are wrong.
It said it in their website of how it ranks the dynamic range!
It is a valid test, but you just ignore everything.
Instead, you trust some guy who doesn't provide much of the information on the forum.
And you blame me trusting DXO?
DXO provide significantly more information on how they test the tonal range and dynamic range than DPReview...


Each uniform zone on the chart (a “patch”) is measured for luminance (cd/m2) with a certified luminance-meter; then all the values are input into DxO Analyzer software.
Once the target is measured and the DxO Analyzer software is calibrated, the selected camera shoots an image of the noise target at different ISO settings, and the noise for each color channel of the target image (R, Gr, Gb, B) is then measured. The mean gray level and noise values are computed for each patch and for all images shot at different ISO settings. These numerical values are interpolated for all gray levels to calculate and plot SNR curves, from which DxO Analyzer extracts the SNR 18%, the dynamic range, and the tonal range.


OK~~~~
Even if you don't trust DXO
What about Image-Resource?
Why you keep ignore of what I asked?


Windwaker wrote:
The link I gave you explains a different point of view. 4/3 does better in dynamic range when there is enough light. We have a lot of users talks about it even in this thread. Your experience with E1/E3 may be bad. There are, however, a lot of Olympus Users are happy with their camera to do magazine work.


Why do we care about DR if we have "enough light" and similar light condition across the image??

And... Come On~~~
Ask around in the business of print shop or magazine firm or newspaper or some publication sort~~~
How many people use E3 for production work???
I've seen people using E1 or 450D or D70 for production work, but who uses Olympus?
Why do they choose Olympus?
The 2 only reason should be simple: Very light 300mm lens equiv. to 135 format and the SSWF!
I bet you nobody will mention about dynamic range in E3!
Then you ask them why they do not want to use E3...
The list goes on and on...
我的 Blog http://snowmen-world.blogspot.com/
meridian wrote:
小感光元件的缺點E3...(恕刪)


可憐的麻豆,好像忘了洗脖子了...
1. 看大家英文來英文去,真是覺得連討論興趣也要如此,台灣有希望了。不過為 a.服務廣大01鄉民 b.忠實傳達本意 c.避免原意屈解,是否請求大家僅可能用“正體中文”討論。感謝!
2. 前面的討論又有些混淆了 ..... DR (動態範圍)vs. Thermal SNR (熱雜訊比);JPEG vs. RAW;職業 vs. 業餘 ..... 這樣下去,怎會有結果?
3. 24 位元的 JPEG 能記錄多大的動態範圍?還是要討論 48 位元的 TIFF 檔?對於一般人來說,在螢幕上觀看和送去相館沖洗,JPEG 已經足夠,但對於靠這吃飯的,就要看雇主的需求了(公司電梯的傳媒 LCD,可能只有 16 位元或以下,每每看到名模的臉高光爆掉或一堆同心圓,但人來人往,有幾個人注意了?還有,台北捷運中的一堆“感謝有你的讓座”的色階或公車站國民年金的老伯伯的色階及成相..... 都是職業級的作品
4. 各家在處理低光熱雜訊的哲學不同,有些為讓畫面純淨,將低於某光度的訊號全部抹除;而有些為保留暗部細節,寧願留下熱雜訊或將其處理成某種形式。
5. 當初 4/3 強調預留了相當的空間讓光線接近垂直接觸 CCD,也強調其遠心光學系統的鏡頭設計。但進到 M4/3,是否仍能保有其實已經不是開發者或使用者所注重的(也或許仍保有相當的品質)。因為 JPEG 已經修正,而所搭配的處理 RAW 的軟體也會處理。(別忘了考慮 M4/3 的用家定位)
6. 至於 G1 的影像處理,原則上小弟是傾向 meridian 君的論點,其實也無可厚非。利用後續影像處理,創造更完美的影像,不是很好嗎?即便是 Leica 的 M8 不也有 6-bit code?
7. 關於職業級的選擇,往往有諸多考量,也不能說職業用家不用就不好。Snowman 君也是 L 的用家,應該有類似的感受。即便是幾年前數位不普遍,許多職業用家的生財工具也是 C/N,難道說 L 不好嗎?
8. 至於 meridian 君提的:
> 一樣的結果啊, 不會改變m4/3無法像4/3那樣做直射光的事實
> 理由依然是一樣的, 鏡後距縮短依然會導致斜射光增加
> 要不然就要用更大更複雜的鏡片去修正(你那個連結裡面也有, 0.5x telecentric的前鏡片直徑大了一倍)

若原本 4/3 鏡是遠心光學系統設計的,那就代表這些 4/3 鏡頭用更大更複雜的鏡片來設計。至於鏡後距縮短,是否需要比原本 4/3 鏡來的大,可能需要用學理推導。畢竟這種光學結構已經超過我們國中學的凸透鏡的認知了。
潛水 ........
Windwaker wrote:
你引那一篇文哪裡講到Panasonic G1不用直射光啊?
哪裡說他用軟體矯正邊角失光啊?...(恕刪)

圖片都給你看了你還硬要找文字
不如你自己去看眼科比較快

大家都聞的出來大便是臭的
panasonic or olympus跟你說大便是香的, 你就認為大便真的是香的, 那就是你個人的問題了
snowmen wrote:
You are wrong.
It said it in their website of how it ranks the dynamic range!
It is a valid test, but you just ignore everything.
Instead, you trust some guy who doesn't provide much of the information on the forum.
And you blame me trusting DXO?
DXO provide significantly more information on how they test the tonal range and dynamic range than DPReview...


There we go again.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion. Stop using the word "you are wrong" or "this is not the truth". If you want to keep it as a discussion, you might want to start learning how to say things properly.

First of all, DXO doesn't provide details on how they measured all these so called performance metrics. A benchmark proves 350D is better than E3 for image quality is even considered a fair benchmark? A benchmark measure image quality that fails to provide its methodology is a complete garbage. It is like saying I rank Canon number 1 because i like its color so it's the best.

Talking about ignorance, someone in this thread has posted D70/E330 comparison. No one seems to be reading that. All you saying is that you don't like it and your friend don't like it.

The discussion kind of ends there.

沒圖沒真相




meridian wrote:
圖片都給你看了你還硬要找文字
不如你自己去看眼科比較快

大家都聞的出來大便是臭的
panasonic or olympus跟你說大便是香的, 你就認為大便真的是香的, 那就是你個人的問題了)


怎麼想逃跑啦?

你拿一張廣角變形jpg/raw比較圖
請問這張圖怎麼證明邊角失光啊
怎麼證明沒有直射光啊?

你有種說g1沒直射光就拿出證據來
不要放了屁就跑
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